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Thank you for the new rng balancing, Bossa…

This topic contains 18 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  columbus 9 months, 3 weeks ago.

#105345
wolkenreiter
Participant

…you did an excellent job of needlessly sabotaging any attempts of addressing the rampant balancing issues the game is currently suffering from.

I’m sure you’ve read all the happy feedback of people who’ve been lucky enough to get engines with extraordinary stats, so please find the complete record of my personal misery attached below… It’s probably not just mine, remember, your playerbase is not here, on the forums, neither on Discord, they are the large, silent majority who are just playing the game.

The current system only benefits a small group of power-players who keep grinding for an optimal combination of stats, so they can evacuate the rest of the playerbase from the game with maximum efficiency, since, you know, nobody wants to play a game they cannot win.

I vaguely recall the promise a solo player or small group can avoid pirate attacks by building light, fast ships. Meanwhile, I read on Discord that 37 knots are considered slow, by now, with the average pirate ship hitting 40. Such an arms race for faster and faster ships makes totally sense, given at 25+ knots you’re pretty much desperately clinging to a helm or cannon in order not to get flung off your ship…

30hours and thousands of knowledge later I’m still chugging along on my puny, wooden T1 engines, because that’s where I’ve been lucky for once, desperately praying the next crapshot may produce actually useable gear so I can further progress in the game – and ideally before I completely run out of knowledge in my tiny starter zone (Arbor).

Also, please, please, please stop randomizing the unimplemented stats, overheat and capacity for the next wipe, then gather feedback again on whether players prefer the old or new stat system. Imho, it’s just plain inacceptable that schematics can be universally better or worse by rolling extraordinarily low or high numbers on completely useless stats.

I’m well aware this game is in early state, and I’m tolerant to bugs and problems, but first and foremost, we’re players, who paid to enjoy the game, so we deserve a minimum amount of effort spent into fixing rampant issues that exist now, not making them even worse, while promising us ideas on how to improve all this – soon™.

Thanks for reading this and pardon the sarcasm, but that’s an issue that really gets me sour – and it could have been predicted things will go this way…

Oh, and for the record, lowering the stat requirements for certain high end traits was a good move, that should have gone along with the former rng adjustment ages ago, already. A realistic chance of getting those precious cloudchasers is all that people wanted, really.

T1 1

T2 1
T2 2
T2 3
T2 4

T3 1
T3 2
T3 3

#105351
Jaymz Canada
Participant

I’m sure you’ve read all the happy feedback of people who’ve been lucky enough to get engines with extraordinary stats, so please find the complete record of my personal misery attached below…

Who’s getting T2/3 engines with extraordinary stats? I mean, you haven’t even made it to the T4 Engines node on your knowledge tree yet…so what exactly are you expecting?

It’s probably not just mine, remember, your playerbase is not here, on the forums, neither on Discord, they are the large, silent majority who are just playing the game.

And you’re implying that you speak for that silent majority here? Maybe they are perfectly fine with the rolls they’ve been getting. You have no idea what the majority of people playing this game are thinking or doing, and judging by the steam chart numbers, the ‘silent majority’ is in game and playing…..so…….

Get more knowledge.
Roll more engines.
Profit.

#105354
wolkenreiter
Participant

And you’re implying that you speak for that silent majority here? Maybe they are perfectly fine with the rolls they’ve been getting. You have no idea what the majority of people playing this game are thinking or doing, and judging by the steam chart numbers, the ‘silent majority’ is in game and playing…..so…….

I’m not gonna start on this, but the numbers are steadily on the decline since the wipe, again, already…

Who’s getting T2/3 engines with extraordinary stats? I mean, you haven’t even made it to the T4 Engines node on your knowledge tree yet…so what exactly are you expecting?

With the former stat system, a T3 engine would reliably get power in the 30s range. While the current system does allow for some extremely lucky roll, it unfortunately also means a multiplicate higher chance of rolling individual or multiple stats in the complete garbage range. It’s how math works. That was the very reason it was even changed, back in the day…

While it was still far from perfect, and trust me, I’ve been swearing a lot before I finally started seeing 50+ power engines after no less than 500h in the game, it did the job of creating a somewhat (at least a little more) levelled playing field, by topping the most powerful engines out in the high 60s or low 70s range. It could have bought Bossa time to work on the root issue, the fact that engines pretty much only have 2 significant stats.

Having a fast ship is the most important (not saying the only) factor for succeeding in this game (by whatever standard you define “success”), and powerful engines are the sole key to building fast ships. It cannot be addressed by building or acting smarter, and trying to combat it by adding more engines will only let you see diminishing returns much earlier…

Get more knowledge.
Roll more engines.
Profit.

As I said, I’ve already completely cleared more than 3 of the 4 zones in my starter area, I don’t have many chances left to get something better, and the current schems will hardly allow me to take on a stormwall with a crew, let alone solo. It just can’t be that the game leaves without somewhat useable gear despite pouring all knowledge into it – only to benefit a noisy minority who insists on being able to build ships that can zap around at the speed of sound. The current high power range is only a temporary benefit of exploiting the aforementioned unimplemented stats, anyway, by the time overheat is actually a thing, you will realize that the current rng does not mean better engines, but a higher chance of wasting knowledge for absolute garbage, as well…

#105355
Jaymz Canada
Participant

Numbers for the past week. Wipe was 1 week ago. Numbers grew this past weekend. So you’re factually wrong. No real decline at all, let alone the large one you heavily imply in your statement.

With the former stat system, a T3 engine would reliably get power in the 30s range.

Factually incorrect. Maybe that’s the LUCK you had on it, but what if I didn’t have the same luck? Are you telling us you know what the majority of the T3 engine rolls were and found this to be the case? If so, how did you accomplish this?

the fact that engines pretty much only have 2 significant stats.

This statement alone tells me maybe you don’t understand engine composition well enough. Spin up and Fuel efficiency are very important stats and affect greatly how you play the game. You’re telling me that if we have identical jets, but mine have a 50 fuel efficiency and yours have a 15 fuel efficiency that we have the same jet? I think it’s significant that you’d use almost 4x the amount of fuel I would. Also the fact that my jet would be heavier as it would require (need to confirm this) more mechanical internals materials required. Spin up is important, especially in your case where you say you want to design for max speed to run away from threats.

It cannot be addressed by building or acting smarter

Factually incorrect. A well built power 50 engine will out class a poorly built power 65 engine. You misidentify power as being the key. Power to weight ratio is the real key. And to this end you need to build smart in order to achieve that.

Just judging by all your statements here, I’d suggest you find someone skilled at building engines and performing engine science and pick their brain. You’d learn a lot and likely have a better in-game experience. If you need a couple names, I’d be happy to point you in their direction.

Also, go to T4. If you can’t get there yourself, make friends. If you can’t make friends, then this game is the least of your worries, but I highly doubt that’s the case. So again I say….

Get more knowledge.
Roll more engines.
Profit.

#105361
wolkenreiter
Participant

trend

(weekend-bump and wipe-hype-day excluded, since they obviously have little significance for long term trends)

Just judging by all your statements here, I’d suggest you find someone skilled at building engines and performing engine science and pick their brain. You’d learn a lot and likely have a better in-game experience. If you need a couple names, I’d be happy to point you in their direction.

Thanks for the hint, but I think I got the science part covered:
Engine Science

If I didn’t know exactly what I am talking about, I wouldn’t be so opiniate about this, but it’s just a simple fact that you need powerful engines to build fast ships. Trust me, I’ve gone through a lot of configurations, while you are right that more powerful engines are often more expensive to build, and thus heavier, it’s nowhere near enough of a difference to compensate for the power benefit…

#105362
RitchieJ
Participant

. . . I’m well aware this game is in early state, and I’m tolerant to bugs and problems . . .

As you are obviously aware, excessive RNG is not a bug – it is a poor substitute for proper game design in this case.
I have nothing against grinding – as long as skills and knowledge coupled with schematics progressively improve accordingly.
Valuable time spent should not be rewarded by being locked into a lottery system.
Accumulated knowledge points should be spent productively and not on chance acquirement.

. . . Who’s getting T2/3 engines with extraordinary stats? . . .

You’re right – no one should be BUT –
I want the ability to adjust the parameters to suit my needs –
So if my prime requirement is speed I can push it up to the max. of, say, 20/100 for a T1 engine –
But the other stats, especially fuel efficiency, will suffer accordingly with their max. values unobtainable.

#105363
sir lear
Participant

The current schem drops from chests and knowledge work a little TOO well, the main frustration here is the jump from T3 to T4.

The irritation from the main poster is that you can have a (all example numbers) t1 engine with 8-24 power… you can have a t2 engine with a power of 12-35… you can have a t3 engine with a power of 20-40 and then you can have t4 engines that are 20-100 (maybe 20 is to low for the current 1.6 system)

notice that the largest spectrum of power comes from the t4 engines. Jets with 50+ have become pretty common, but it is also pretty un-common to get jets up in the hi 60’s and low 70’s… but it is only “un-common” not unique or legendary if you want to use rarity terms from other games.

How do you bridge this gap between 50 power engines and 70 power engines… A bit of luck (small amount) and knowing how to build things in a way to min/max your ship.

The luck comes from the props. You need metal props to get the most out of T4 engines.

The min/max on building engines (or anything for that mater) is that when you look at the stat sheet for materials (https://www.worldsadrift.com/forums/topic/worlds-adrift-science-updated-for-0-1-4-3/) you can see that “wow i totally want to use the one that give me 100% boost to my systems”…. or not?

Next look at this link https://worldsadrift.gamepedia.com/Metal

You will see that their is a small weight difference from metal to metal going up the (or down) the list, but their is a huge weight difference from those 100% stat boost to the 80% stat boosts. You need to account for that when building…. Want a fast ship? Then make your stuff out of the 80% boost materials because you get a rather large boost with out adding unnessacary drag to your ship. Cannons are a big part of this equation… Tungsten is great for adding to power of a cannon, but look how much weight you add to your ship when you can use say nickel or titanium instead of knock 60kg off of each cannon.. same goes for engines.

Weight is a huge factor in the game. Would you rather want 8 engines that are 120 power at 230kg or 8 engines at 98 power at 130kg?

Learn your material weight vs effectiveness and knowledge up to t4 via the tree or getting into t4 and you will profit.

#105364
sir lear
Participant

I will give you another example. Before the wipe of 1.6 we had a rather large-ish ship that had X3’s with base power of like 62 or 64 that we min/maxed up to 98 power, but they were only something like 108kg…. we stuffed 18 of them on the ship and with 7 cannons on it was still doing 38 knots.

Imagine if we did not have the cannons on it? would have easily done over 40.

Later we replaced the x3’s with something that was a few steps higher than that and the engines went up to 110 power… we then bumped the cannon number up to 10…. it was then doing 40 knots…. how? Because all the cannons were only 102 kg.

You dont need to use the “best” materials in game because their is no best, you need to use materials suited for how you are going to use the ship

also the ship weighed something like 6200 kg

#105365
wolkenreiter
Participant

@sir-lear Dude, I appreciate your hints, but you’re trying to teach the professor. Look at the screenshot I posted above, I’ve been working on this tool for around 3 months, now, it allows me to simulate any homogenous or heterogenous engine configuration on any ship, and I’ve done so, with a number of ships, across a dozen, or so, different engine schematics.
I could even tell you at which point Steel beats Nickel (a good deal of engine schems would benefit from Steel, but it yields poor fuel efficiency), or Nickel becomes more weight-efficient than Titanium (with a few schems, but you usually don’t want to use them). Could even tell you where you’d be seeing a speed increase by using Tungsten (in a few edge cases, but they’re not practically relevant, currently). I can even tell you where alu propellers are more effective than tin ones.

Anyhow the result has always been, that the more powerful engine wins.
In order to reach the same speed as 6x 61 bp Cloudchasers, you would have to use 10x 55bp prop engines and suffer additional punishment by having to add more wings and possibly further core upgrades, as well as likely requiring an overall bigger ship to mount them, not to mention the higher fuel consumption.
(that was just my pre-wipe ship I could recall as a random example from the top of my mind)

#105368
Atreties
Participant

Every game ever that has ever had regular wipes sees a player spike immediately after a wipe, and then as the duration of that wipe draws nearer to its end, the playerbase declines. This is an obvious constant that literally everyone that knows about the topic predicted and knew was going to happen, and attributing any drop in playerbase to something else with 0 evidence is sophistry to the extreme.

Also, everyone recognizes that the RNG system for ship parts is sub-optimal. This is not new. Everyone knows this. Bossa knows this. This is why Bossa is working on a “cypher” system where you can somehow direct some of that RNG how you’d prefer it to go. The details are vague, as they don’t want hype for the system to get out of hand before it’s about to be released.

Meanwhile, I read on Discord that 37 knots are considered slow, by now, with the average pirate ship hitting 40.

You’re quoting me, and taking me massively out of context. This is in reference to the end of a 9 month wipe. People had 9 months to get the top of the top engine schematics, 9 months to get loads and loads of top quality materials, 9 months to get enough titanium and aluminum to fully make a ship light enough to reach these numbers.

Those speeds are not expected or reasonably obtained by almost anyone only a week into a wipe. 30 knots is quite fast, and 35 is blazing fast atm.

——-

Everyone agrees that overheat and capacity not being in the game yet is sub-optimal. Everyone agrees that spinup, fuel efficiency, and cannon overheat being useless stats is sub optimal. None of this is new. The only thing youre adding to the conversation is baseless conjecture about the game population, implications that you speak for the “silent majority”, provably false claims that you cannot get thru the stormwall solo with the screenshotted engines, and quotes taken out of context.

Stop crying and add something useful to the conversation.

#105371
Rodeo
Participant

I think what has been done about engines feels good for now. I do think that freezing the stats that aren’t implemented would have been nice. Until we get the cypher system, I think all of the Schem RNG is going to feel lacking in some regard.

Also, to address the solo player speed issue, I hope soon that sails as procedurally generated schems in their own knowledge tree could fix this. Having sails that cost less than engines, that afford small solo player ships similar speed to gunships with jets . I think that crews that really grind for the mats and schems, and work hard to min/max their builds should still be afforded the strength and speed they have, but it still is a little titled in their favor.
Not using cannons should provide you the proper weight bonus to go faster. Relying on sails means that when you run, you have to go with the wind, so you don’t get full autonomy like you do with engines. Using sails would mean you can’t go through wind walls without engines, but using these types of sails could maybe allow for you to get away and hide if you build well, and are skilled enough to get it moving quickly when caught with your pants down.

Otherwise, I think that most of the counterpoints here are valid. Expecting to reach top tier as a solo player, in a quick manner, is unrealistic. This game rewards crew play. It decreases your individual RNG punishment, it affords you the additional eyes and hands you need to survive longer, it just makes it all easier.

#105372

The solo player, unarmed, small, fast ship is encouraged and supported by a number of features that haven’t been implemented yet. I think this was mostly related to increasing cannon weight, the implementation of overheat and, to a lesser extant, the implementation of reviver charge.

#105373
wolkenreiter
Participant

You’re quoting me, and taking me massively out of context. This is in reference to the end of a 9 month wipe. People had 9 months to get the top of the top engine schematics, 9 months to get loads and loads of top quality materials, 9 months to get enough titanium and aluminum to fully make a ship light enough to reach these numbers.

Apologies, I have indeed misread your comment, but ultimately, your “it’s too early in the wipe” argument is moot. From what I know, the finished game is supposed to become a single-shard MMO, with no regular wipes on their agenda, so they have to figure out how to put longterm-players and complete noobs into the same melting-pot, without enabling one party to completely dominate the other.

Lifting the restrictions (well, technically, there aren’t even any) on schematics seems to be a step in the wrong direction in order to ever get there.

Everyone agrees that overheat and capacity not being in the game yet is sub-optimal.

Good, so why are they still randomized? I scripted a speculative replication of the stat generator a while ago, it is 5 lines of MatLab code, maybe twice as many in whatever language their servers are scripted in. Temporarily freezing one of the stats would be a matter of minutes, just set it to an average value (36 for a T4 engine) and it would practically cease to exist, without having to touch any other code, I suppose. Wasting another 250/320/400/500 knowledge into yet another schematic where overheat is the primary stat is just needlessly frustrating.

One way to tackle that could be to lower the knowledge cost and increasing the number of rolls to reach the next tier, instead, so we have an overall better chance of getting something useful. Again, not sure if this is desireable, I’d rather see balancing advance to the point where “useless” shifts towards “more/less useful for your intended purpose”. Like how I would mount the higher power cannon on the front of my ship, while the high RoF ones goes to the back.

Also, a lot of the community here seems to have a skewed idea of how progression in this game works: “Grind your way to T4 asap, then the game begins”. I don’t think that’s the idea, a new player can easily spend 100 hours in the game before reaching Tier 4 on the engine tree, this is practically endgame and it’s only logical they want to see progress along that way, not be stuck with what they got in their very first engine roll forever…

and for the record: No, I don’t expect rolling a Tier 3 cloudchaser, I’m well aware that the chances are slim, but I’d expect at least something useful from spending 400 knowledge. As I said, rolls in the 30res/30power range used to be common with the former system. With the 15 points minimum per stat, seeing 10 res or 11 power, respectively, would have been impossible – obviously

#105415
Hanger Hangar
Participant

Would you rather the devs do what most other devs are doing? Where the RNG is fake, and utterly manipulated in order to drive more player activity.

Leave the fake RNG hells in the hands of the AAA. I don’t want to see my schematic drop chances changed based on how close I am to logging out for the night, quiting, or continuously teased near optimals so I keep pulling the lever.

____________________

Personally I’d rather see discussion to encourage the devs to implement overheat sooner. Adding a “redline mode” to get more power, at the cost of heat would be a big help as well.
Make spinup feel better. Something like an engine taking damage temporarily slowing it would be one of those things, some walls/biomes interacting with spin up (IE breaking freeze over in the ice zones easier), and similar.
Maybe buffing fuel tanks so that they give a “time left indication” would make fuel efficiency feel way better as well.

#105513
wolkenreiter
Participant

Don’t want to fuel this heated debate even more, but to further prove my point, here is an uncommented screenshot of my very first T4 engine, something you’re really looking forward in excitement, you know?

First T4

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