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Reducing Grind – A way to keep people playing

This topic contains 25 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  El Whoops 5 days, 16 hours ago.

#127929
Lofftus
Participant

I don’t think we need a permanent bank. We do need a faster way to get back into the sky with a ship we designed not just an island hopping raft. Two ways to do that would be to have ship schematics include component placement. The second would be to increase the farm rates of ore and allow refinement of low quality ore.

#127937
El Whoops
Participant

– Find top tier crews with your own competent and organized team and compete against them.
– Pirate a guy but just ask him a good joke
– Organize an event

All great ideas Eranok, but i blatantly refuse. I am not supporting this kind of game design.
“The players will create their own content” as an excuse for not providing has to be paraded up and down the street as failed concept, with as many people mocking along the side as possible.
There are WAY too many games noman’sskying around by now – without actually being constantly improved like the actual No Man’s Sky.
NMS actually managed to become quite a good and rich game in the time this here has achieved absolutely nothing.
Players WILL create living worlds, but how vivid depends entirely on the tool-set provided.

#127940
Zugsturm
Participant

I do believe we could do this by simply increasing certain metals we get on a pulse
x2 Lead, Bronze, Orthite, Iron
x1.5 Tin, Nicole
x1.25 titanium, Elpare, Eturnium
x.5 aluminum.

Making an iron tin rig should be fast.

#127941
Zugsturm
Participant

I don’t think we need a permanent bank. We do need a faster way to get back into the sky with a ship we designed not just an island hopping raft. Two ways to do that would be to have ship schematics include component placement. The second would be to increase the farm rates of ore and allow refinement of low quality ore.

yeah this is the answer and its a simple one that I don’t think would require much work. Sometimes the simple answers are the best.

#127944
tberry
Participant

@zugsturm just a little correction here, it’s Nickel not Nicole.
Also what is Elpare? (I’m truly at a loss here)

#127948
Entity Progressive
Participant

@zugsturm just a little correction here, it’s Nickel not Nicole.
Also what is Elpare? (I’m truly at a loss here)

I’m pretty sure that post was a result of auto-correct.

Elpare is a name. Epilar is the metal. Just like Nicole and Nickel.

#127950
El Whoops
Participant

I do believe we could do this by simply increasing certain metals we get on a pulse

Yes, x10 like on the PTS.

The thought behind it is a very simple one: Protect the player from ruining his own game. Whole libraries full of blabla have been written about that subject.
It goes like this: If the meta is to fly an aluminum ship they all WILL fly an aluminum ship. If it is tedious and boring to get an aluminum ship the game will become tedious and boring.
You as a designer have to circumnavigate that from happening with great priority because you do not want to make a dumb, repetitive, tedious and boring game.

It’s a simple mechanic that is always true. The players will always use those repetitive but effective patterns, making the game a drag for themselves.
The ones that have looked the deepest into this subject, as far as i know, are the guys from the new UFO Enemy Unknown titles.

PS: I would much rather chase after Nicole and Irene, than nickel and iron. 😀

PPS:

Epilar is the metal.

Nope, Epilar is something that women use to create this:

The reality is way more attractive than the picture but just so you get the idea.

#127952
Heartnire
Participant

The thought behind it is a very simple one: Protect the player from ruining his own game.

Mark Brown does a truly excellent series on game design called Game Maker’s Toolkit. He touches this very subject in a twelve-minute video:

(For further reading, check out the video’s description.)

I have here a good quote from Mark Brown touching on the subject. It’s not actually from the video linked above, but I, for the life of me, can’t find the video it did come from. I know it’s from him, though:

It’s not enough to just hope that your players will do what will be most fun. (…) Without proper motivation or reward, players might never see your game in the way you intend it. As a designer, it’s your job to put in the right pressure points and manufacture the right systems to encourage the player to behave in a certain way.
If you want gamers to play is a certain way, you’ve got to encourage them through systems (…) or level design, or incentives (…). Otherwise, they’ll more likely play it in the most safe and boring way possible.

#127997
El Whoops
Participant

Often it is enough to just think mechanics through in the aspect of how they will be played – not how you INTEND it to work out but how a PLAYER will approach it.
A good bad example is the ships in No Man’s Sky.
Could you upgrade the slots the players would strife to do so.
They would go out and play the game because there is a perspective of slow but steady improvement towards that desired point with the material at hand.
Instead now they spend hours – days even – to find that 48 slot S class. Reloading and reloading and reloading, making the game a tedious task …

#128004
Entity Progressive
Participant

Instead now they spend hours – days even – to find that 48 slot S class. Reloading and reloading and reloading, making the game a tedious task …

I would say this is an excellent example of how players will respond to a game process.

No Mans Sky is typically intended for players to explore and find a ship they are going to enjoy the game with. Key word being “Find” a ship. But if a guaranteed way to “Get” the ship you want is possible no matter how tedious and mind-numbing, most players will choose the grind over exploration and chance.

World’s Adrift is in the same situation. The Tech Tuesday update stating they will migrate offline ships to another server and possibly allow for blueprints for more than the frame is a welcome addition. It won’t reduce grind for resources, but it will reduce the time players spend in-between ships engaging in the tedious grind.

#128008
El Whoops
Participant

Yes, exactly.
Also – you can have a very dramatic game which would be a great experience but the player does not see eye to eye with you one bit.
They see their task completely different to what you had in mind.
XCOM for example was meant to be played dynamically, thrilling, kicking and screaming, with losses to be expected. The losses that would make those heroes emerge on the flip side.
The ones that got away, the immortals. But as a player you are of course the protector of your party and they took that very seriously and said screw you game designer, I am the commander here!
The players took all the excitement out of the game by playing it safe, with proven, very repetitive patterns, actually doing the reasonable thing.
Reasonable – but not a lot of fun at all. The more centered a society is around being reasonable the harder they will ruin your game. Go watch a German play XCOM … it’s a pain to behold.

As a designer – do not expect the player to share your goals and motivations.
A long time ago i said here, when the PvP vs PvE debate was fiery, that it is completely irrelevant what Bossa intended … they did not really understand that back then.

it’s your job to put in the right pressure points

As far as my experience goes you should never try to apply pressure.
That will backfire at the first opportunity! And it most likely will backfires completely out of proportion and in a spectacular manner because your customers are a truly vengeful bunch!
Better use incentive. Even if the effective result is completely identical. I would like to field that WoW exp punishment system for long playing hours as example.
Your experience gained went to the dumps more and more, the longer you played. All hell broke lose and the shit storm hit the fan, so to say. 😀
Then they inverted it and gave you a bonus after not playing for a while – effectively resulting in the same average experience … but the people were happy!

PS: Oh … most of this crap is already mentioned in the video above. Should watch those things first, i guess.

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