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PvP and anxiety

This topic contains 61 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  Obesitybee 7 months, 1 week ago.

#105071
Obesitybee
Participant

I hate to say this because I was originally a fan of open PvP but the constant threat of attack and losing everything is weighing against me. I can’t fly the ship I want because I have to keep my ship small fast and cheap. I want to fly a large ship I can call home not a small getaway scout. When I explore on land I’m constantly on the look out for hostiles, staring at the skies to make sure my ship isn’t being attacked. I have to explore the islands quickly and always have that nagging feeling of vulnerability. This anxiety is not fun, it’s the waiting room at the dentist anxiety not the waiting in line for a rollercoaster anxiety.. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I think EVE online handled PvP the right way, they have high sec systems and low sec systems and I think Worlds Adrift needs the same thing. I can’t fool myself any more of this reality. I’m finding my enthusiasm for logging into WA lessening day after day. PvP is limiting my play options. I can’t fly the ship I want to fly, I can’t explore with out that anxiety, these factors are limiting my enjoyment of WA. I think WA needs EVE online security ratings and this is why…

If we have secured biomes people are free to fly what they want and explore at their leisure. If you want challenge and danger in the secured biomes skies then you can have it by flying your battle flag and attacking those with their battle flags raised. If you attack non PvP enabled ships and people then you and your ship gets obliterated by space based energy weapon systems, something like this or this exactly. Then you have your no security biomes open PvP 24/7. Here you consent by entering the biomes and you switch ships and fly a ship you can afford to lose and you come prepared for PvP. The no sec biomes is where you find the rare valuable resources and other valuable goodies. If you can’t stomach the constant pressure of PvP then fly back to secured biomes and “relax”.

The crux of this post is the not fun anxiety and the limitations of gameplay because of unrelenting PvP. What bothers me the most is I can’t fly the ship I want and I can’t explore islands without anxiety dampening my fun, I have to rush. These things are fun killers and I think most players agree with me even if they don’t want to admit it. Real life is PvP but real life doesn’t translate to video games. We shouldn’t allow idealism to ruin a good game.

#105075
charles britannia
Participant

I honestly think it’ll be easier when the servers are more populated and alliances are formed, most of the alliances will be pirate hunting groups. Newer players aren’t going to want to join the people attacking them for a laugh, I think pirate hunting alliances will gain large numbers quickly.

#105078
fenix
Moderator
Moderator

@charles-britannia your last post was deemed to be in violation of the site’s code of conduct and has been unapproved. Please adhere to the site rules.

Edit: last two posts. Knock it off. Last warning.

#105080
Atreties
Participant

I understand your complaint. I disagree with it, but I understand it.

But I don’t understand posting it the way you did. It’s all complaint and problem, with no viable solution of any kind. Just saying “do what EVE did” is shortsighted and naive in the extreme.

What would High Sec look like in WA? What would the security system be? Should Bossa create an entire system of spawning in huge AI battleships that come in and cannon the “aggressor”? How should the game decide who the aggressor is? Would the AI cannons be able to inadvertently kill the “defender”? Would the AI ships be invulnerable? would they be normal physics objects in the game? Could I grab the AI ship helm?

Doing any sort of real thought of how anyone would ever go about implementing something like this in WA reveals exactly why it hasn’t been implemented. For one, it’s an incredibly massive and complex undertaking that dwarfs every other feature they’ve ever done. And even if they were to implement it, it would sprout up 293784832 related problems that would then need to be solved. And after ALL of that monumental effort, there’s not even any guarantee that the game would be better off for it.

And don’t give the whole standard “it’s not my job to design the game for them” weaksauce. They are humans too, and they aren’t gods. If you can’t figure a realistic and functional method of solving these issues, even in vague terms, what makes you think that they can?

#105083
Mithael
Participant

I understand your complaint. I disagree with it, but I understand it.

But I don’t understand posting it the way you did. It’s all complaint and problem, with no viable solution of any kind. Just saying “do what EVE did” is shortsighted and naive in the extreme.

What would High Sec look like in WA? What would the security system be? Should Bossa create an entire system of spawning in huge AI battleships that come in and cannon the “aggressor”? How should the game decide who the aggressor is? Would the AI cannons be able to inadvertently kill the “defender”? Would the AI ships be invulnerable? would they be normal physics objects in the game? Could I grab the AI ship helm?

Doing any sort of real thought of how anyone would ever go about implementing something like this in WA reveals exactly why it hasn’t been implemented. For one, it’s an incredibly massive and complex undertaking that dwarfs every other feature they’ve ever done. And even if they were to implement it, it would sprout up 293784832 related problems that would then need to be solved. And after ALL of that monumental effort, there’s not even any guarantee that the game would be better off for it.

And don’t give the whole standard “it’s not my job to design the game for them” weaksauce. They are humans too, and they aren’t gods. If you can’t figure a realistic and functional method of solving these issues, even in vague terms, what makes you think that they can?

How about this.
/set cannons = offline
/set pistol damage to players = zero
/set collide damage = zero
/set block and ship collider = zero.
Can’t hit them can’t damage them problem solved.

I know it’s not that simple, and I’d like to have a different solution which would not hurt anybody but neither my wish nor the wish of other People counts This game is an open world PvP game, so we get that no mercy no time to relax just PvP.
Everything is okay everything is allowed there is no limit to how much you can screw people over.

#105091
Obesitybee
Participant

But I don’t understand posting it the way you did. It’s all complaint and problem, with no viable solution of any kind. Just saying “do what EVE did” is shortsighted and naive in the extreme.

Then you haven’t read my post carefully. I mentioned a space based defense system that could be energy weapon satellite systems left behind before the collapse. The sattelites are AI that police certain parts of WA. When someone attack someone who hasn’t flagged themselves for PvP then a bolt of energy comes down from the skies and kills them. If they are on their ship it also destroys their ship. The energy bolt can go through all entities without hurting them and only strike the offender. It looks gamey but can be explained thematically, it’s a directed energy weapon that can bypass all matter until it hits it’s aimed focal point. No spawning of anysort, just instant death. Also upon revival the offender is flagged for open PvP meaning he can be killed without AI protection for a certain length of time.

Doing any sort of real thought of how anyone would ever go about implementing something like this in WA reveals exactly why it hasn’t been implemented. For one, it’s an incredibly massive and complex undertaking that dwarfs every other feature they’ve ever done. And even if they were to implement it, it would sprout up 293784832 related problems that would then need to be solved. And after ALL of that monumental effort, there’s not even any guarantee that the game would be better off for it.

Honestly I think you’re exxagerating. The instant kill energy bolts is godlike retribution without casualties. I like PvP in principle but it’s kind of like loving cake, too much of it isn’t good for the health of the game. I used to be a proponent of all the time PvP but it’s wearing me out and the reality of it is dawning on me. Secured biomes can be dangerous with PvE threats and challanges but it’s on the players terms. A player can prepare themselves for the risks, no one wants easy mode. There can also be consentual PvP by flaging yourself for it.

#105092
Obesitybee
Participant

I admit that implementing secured biomes might be using a hammer to kill a fly, we don’t have to go so far so soon. If it’s possible for players to quickly anchor their ship to land and place a shield generator like you would a crafter on land and have their ship become totally immune then this will eliminate the anxiety of exploration.

When I self analyze myself playing I realize much of the dissapointment from the open PvP comes from when I go on land. My ship is so defenseless and I have everything there. It feels like leaving my wallet in a city bench, while I go get a hotdog, lol. I think shield generators can elimate much of the frustration of unmitigated PvP. Simply use the same logout system whereby if your ship isn’t interacted for a minute or two you can install the shield generator onland quickly. This will prevent PvP exploits.

#105093
Atreties
Participant

First, you assume that flagging for PvP is a given, and would be easy to implement. This is incredibly far from the case.

Seriously, actually think things thru. Play the game in your head for a second. Put your mind in the head of a potential pirate. Put your mind in the head of a potential griefer. Implement your changes, then try to grief someone under that system.

Let’s say that you have 2 people un-flagged. Would these 2 ships still interact with physics together?

If yes, how would you deal with a massive cage ship whose goal is to trap an enemy ship and push it into the abyss? Currently, you can just fight them off, cannon them. You have ways to deal with the problem. Under your flagging system, you’d get atomized for defending yourself because it would see you as the aggressor.

If there’s no ship to ship physics that would be weird and feel like a bug, but even so, then does your person still have physics with the enemy ship?

If yes, I could just park my enormous ship inside of yours and make you unable to move.

If no, then it would both feel weird and like a bug and you could at least visually grief someone by blocking all view with your massive no-clip ship. But then what happens if they flag up while inside you? do both ships explode due to physics? Do you have your space-laser just instantly delete the enemy ship and all of its components while leaving the defending ship unharmed somehow?

See this video of the devs talking about this issue

—-

As for the shipyard bubble/shield generator, I actually agree with that idea, if implemented correctly. Complete immunity can be exploited. Instant high-health shield can be exploited. But there’s a way to make this system work, and I agree that docking on an island should feel at least somewhat safe, instead of barely any protection.

#105100
Neurotrauma
Participant

Logged back in after a long break to immediately be harassed by two different teams of worthless a**hat griefers. Bossa, you need to change quite a bit to ever see this game go anywhere. I doubt I will try this pile of junk again for a while.

#105104
Ointment
Participant

In my opinion, the issue will eventually self-resolve with hunting guilds that hunt down people who do this sort of thing. And devs had said in the past that because of the game’s physics-based nature, you literally cannot disable PVP. The game doesn’t differentiate. Also, the first days after a wipe will always be a bloddbath.

#105129
x arjuna x
Participant

Did i hear Anti-Pirate Alliance? 😀

If you play on EU-West, Clear Sky Empire is the Alliance to go to. After the second wipe we’ll be more active again. You can be just a member and profit from help in need or be more active and participate in scouting, maybe mapping or PVP anti pirate military section.

About the fear, we just dock the ship and make our thing without bothering much. Never had a big problem till now… Was attacked once by a solo pirate in mid air and shredded his sorry ass to pieces with the swivel gun over and over, untill he had enough… 😀

#105132
Manton X
Participant

Secure systems/safe zones isn’t something new to MMOs and there’s a reason for it. This problem will never self-resolve, because that belief requires high skill PvP players to be on the pirate hunting side and they won’t be in large enough numbers. They are not going to limit themselves to a fight every now and then. They are going to want constant action and that means being a pirate. You are going to end up with hardcore PvP pirate crews facing pirate-hunters mostly made up of guys who want to be merchants/traders and casual/semi-PvP players. How was this lesson not learned completely with Osiris?

What would a secure system look like in WA? Not sure, but I could envision 2 things that would go a long way to giving players a chance to get into the game and stopping the entire game world from being Lord of the Flies. I see having a few designated secure zones that are T1 absolutely, T2 maybe and none in T3+ zones. Secure zones would have something like:

1) NPC controlled long range Island-based land-to-air artillery – If one ship fires on and hits another ship within a secure zone, that ship is flagged and will be fired on by all artillery that it comes in range of. Yes, there are ways that pirates can overcome a ship using more powerful engines, but it forces the pirate to board the ship without the backup of their cannons. With the introduction of Swivel Guns that may be enough. Is it perfect, no .. could it be improved, yes.

2) Security Drones that patrol islands – This I could see working something like the Sentinels in No Man’s Sky. Here you gain some added complexity because you can do things besides shooting another player (like damaging their ship, destroying storage, etc.).

I also see the flagging in both instances being something that follows a player/crew/ship for a while so that they can’t just run off for 5 mins and everything is back to normal for them. Perhaps, like ED, they are flagged as wanted and then become open game for other players regardless of the sector they are in until the flag resets.

Something else that is sorely needed across the entire game, and not just any secure sector, is at minimum an intra-sector comm channel where players in a zone could broadcast an SOS or give out warnings/information. Yes, pirates could use it to lure people. No, that’s not a reason not to have it; as long as the communications come with player tag info.

#105137
Obesitybee
Participant

Anti pirate groups will never do anything to effect the out of control PvP, it’s not even piracy it’s just killing for the fun of it. Why? Simple it never happened before and we have EVE online as the ultimate example. I think the shield generators will address the worst part of PvP.

#105139
x arjuna x
Participant

The swivel gun is pretty effective when you place it tactically smart along with the respawner… 😛

#105149

This will remain a long term issue with the game, I think. I’m pretty sure there isn’t any way to tailor the game to the range of tastes that it attracts.

It takes a while to get a character or crew to the point where they are competitive enough to worry less about the “have cannon, must shoot stuff” folks. Getting stomped on isn’t fun but learning to deal with and recover from it is part of the game.

Bossa has some stuff in the works to shift things a bit so that the advantage is with the defender. Jury is still out on how much difference that will make – I’m guessing it will change the tactics of battles but not the frequency or costs associated with them. And even with a slight defensive advantage there isn’t much that will protect you from the top tier PVPers except diplomacy.

If mantas, thuntomites and gravity were the only threats in the game it would get old fast. Interacting with other players IS content for this game. That’s the experiment Bossa is betting on. That fact that not all of those interactions are going to be pleasant for everyone involved is going to remain part of it.

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